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Cops vs Rebels : Guns


PeterR

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Dear Reborn Community

I am back once again to discuss rebel vs police related topics. It has always been a problem where rebels overpower the police in equipment. Lately I have been playing as a cop later in the night where role-play is more uncommon and combat is more dominant weather it be people refusing to give up without a gunfight or people baiting cops on their own. As we all know it is late at night when a lot of people come and do runs when the population is at its lowest and the cops are least active. The weapons which cops receive in the lower ranks are nowhere near the caliber or firepower which the syndicate and standard rebels receive. The cops gain the advantage of having guns and equipment for free but it only takes 1 copper run for a hobo to get a hold of a spar-16 which is the standard issue gun constables receive. And then mk20 which pcso's receive and even at that rubber bullets with half of the natural fire rate. Even senior constables only receive 6.5 which is still not as good as what the rebels can easily get their hands on for cheap prices. In most situations cops will lose a gunfight due to the gun but maybe also bad skill, but the gun still has a big part to play in combat. For example ; when you have a squad of constables and pcos's attending to thorium mine and come across multiple armed rebels which have 7.62s or higher, whp is most likely to win said battle. Also civilians can easily make their way up in gun tier by doing runs repeatedly and not worrying about cops.

My suggestion would be to higher the price of the weapon thus making high tier weapons less common in the community.

Or give the cops higher caliber weapons

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Or you could use your numbers to actually achieve something instead of it being a hindrance, which, from when I was a cop was always the main problem.. Shit comms, shit positioning = easy kills for the opposition.

Cops will always out number in-game and, contrary to this for the cops - they are not the majority of this community (And never should be) as entertaining civs and gaining interest from rebel groups etc. is what gains the popularity of the server, so why not cater to them? If every pcso attends a gas station robbery or thorium with a 762 - guess what? Not everyone in those situations are going to have 762 to themselves and think the server is ridiculous.

PCSOs are there to learn the ropes and to get to grips with the RP expected from them. So, what exactly is the requirement of a bigger weapon?

And if we were to talk from an RP perspective - Most cops in the UK roll around with tasers only - when they attend a situation they don't just say "Oh just in case let me grab my sniper rifle".... They'd observe, use COMMON SENSE before they walk in and make a judgement call from there.

Edited by Sage
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31 minutes ago, Delta said:

Lately I have been playing as a cop later in the night where role-play is more uncommon and combat is more dominant weather it be people refusing to give up without a gunfight or people baiting cops on their own.

As for this i don't know if you have noticed but the officer that patrol at night seem to think they rule the server, when i patrol at night i chill around with people and have a laugh, At that time of night just be lenient on people and you will enjoy it alot more.

Its like they see a gun and get a boner, just let it be and have a chat. I think you will find people are more willing to roleplay at night rather than in the day.

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7 minutes ago, Sage said:

Why don't cops pay for gear again? Seems to me the negatives far outweigh the positives as it is.

Cops aren't allowed to do illegal things as a civ, and are given a very nice paycheck. The idea is since we force them to not do illegal things, the gear is free as they are compensated by the paycheck. Many cops have a decent bank for if they go on holiday or leave the police.

Many AL servers where cops pay for gear are given money for making arrests/writing tickets

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4 minutes ago, Thesoldier said:

Many AL servers where cops pay for gear are given money for making arrests/writing tickets

Is this something you have considered implementing? If so, what was the outcome of the discussion? I don't wish to hijack a thread so if need be I can make another one or we can discuss it elsewhere, I'm just curious as to me it sounds a lot more logical and would solve a lot of problems from my own experience with cops ^^

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14 minutes ago, Sage said:

Is this something you have considered implementing? If so, what was the outcome of the discussion? I don't wish to hijack a thread so if need be I can make another one or we can discuss it elsewhere, I'm just curious as to me it sounds a lot more logical and would solve a lot of problems from my own experience with cops ^^

Discourages roleplay as cops would just stack people with tickets. (ALUK had this system when it first started you had cops who had over 100 million in cash because they would stack everything and anything)

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Cops will not pay for gear because they are encouraged to roleplay and attend situations they can. By making officers pay for a load out they are less likely to attend situations as they know they will likely lose gear. There is also the problem of cops getting RDMd a fair amount as it is. As police we are required to attend every situation possible, and we have to do our job, I would argue a rebel has a choice as to what situation they wish to enter and how they wish to create them.

Making officers have to pay when they receive a £20,000 pay check per 15 is silly. Because it then opens up an argument for Police to have ways of earning more money, whether that be by receiving the persons bounty if they arrest someone, or half of it if they kill someone, we'd also have cops more likely to take the risk of doing drugs so they can further fund their equipment. IF we were to allow cops to have the bounty off people they arrested, an argument then opens up about whether police are allowing RP to occur or whether there is a legitimate concern over cops metagaming and arresting people purely for their bounty. You can also give cops the money from writing tickets, however I have seen how silly this can make things.

We've already said we won 't be changing loadouts for police. So they won't get higher caliber. However try and understand Deltas viewpoint. From what we hear, rebels can make £1,500,000 per 15 minutes via an extremely easy mohawk run of Thorium, you also get most of your weapons on discount.

Regarding the argument about cops not caring because they don't pay for gear, though that may be true for some officers, for the majority I would argue against it, when we die in operations, we get annoyed, because we've died. I can't think I've ever heard a cop say "well at least my gear is free", they're usually pissed at dieying, because we don't want to die, we want to arrest / kill the rebels, just like you do.

Edited by Walt
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I don't know how many times I've seen this exact post on multiple communities and it still triggers me just as much every time I do.

You overwhelm 90% of the rebel gangs on this server,

on average to a fed you will have around 20 cops sometimes even more as they log on during the bank, and you still lose.

Not due to what gun you have and not due to its Round size, but due to bad organisation and bad leadership within the cops, I forget how many cops I see die every time you try and sit in the same houses in telos and use the same pushes every time before we even leave the banks, giving cops higher tier weapons will make minimal difference, if your movement is good enough you will get kills, end of story

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I remember the days Constable's only had the MK20 and a holo sight...

I think that Police don't need further armament improvement. I think it's fair that rebels can have access to 7.62 whilst only DCC+ can get access to 7.62, as we have a very active Police player base and at peak times we usually hit full Police slots. The rebels need an advantage in terms of weaponry purely for the reason that Police usually respond to a situation where rebels are highly outnumbered by Police.

I'm happy with the weaponry balance and I think it's very fair. If we gave Constables 6.5mm, what's the drive to get promoted? If you get everything given to you as Constable what's the point of ranks?

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11 minutes ago, AdaM^ said:

Not due to what gun you have and not due to its Round size, but due to bad organisation and bad leadership within the cops, I forget how many cops I see die every time you try and sit in the same houses in telos and use the same pushes every time before we even leave the banks, giving cops higher tier weapons will make minimal difference, if your movement is good enough you will get kills, end of story

If only the entire police force understood this we might not lose 80% of the police in the first 5 mins, because they are hard-peaking or sat in the same buildings as always....

Your comment about "bad leadership within the cops" is not really that big of an issue. The issue is with people not following the leadership, because people don't get punished if they don't and that is why you see 5-10 cops in telos every bank, because they don't listen.

Edited by Freddie
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34 minutes ago, Battl^^Eye said:

I remember the days Constable's only had the MK20 and a holo sight...

The horrific times of the ACO literally killed me.

Anyways, there are too many things in this thread to read, I'm lazy and I just want to put my point forward.

The reason you aren't winning banks and gunfights is because your positioning and general tactics/organisating is appauling. A 5.56mm can easily take down a MK-1, you just have to get in the position so that is so. Infact, I generally got more kills when I had an MXC/MK20/SPAR-16 because I played more carefully due to the fact that I knew I would be outgunned in a confrontation. Now that I have the better weapons (Still 6.5mm mind you) a lot of the time I take too many risks and I'm not patient enough. I'm a complete hypocrite when I say this sometimes, but don't push, don't run around in the open - just hold a good position, watch your back and wait.

Regards to @Freddie's point, it's very true. I don't think I've participated in a bank which has been lost in a while but I can say that when the server first started up, cops would get completely destroyed by the rebels. The reasoning for that was because there was no designated leader and our general plan was to just get inside the compound as quickly as possible (Like the Blitzkrieg tactic if you know anything about it). It may work well in continental battles, but it really doesn't work with a compound.

The Treasury compound is impossible to push if the people within have the right positioning and numbers. Sorry to say it lads, but if you have a person in every deerstand who simply doesn't peek, you're fucked. Due to the placement of deerstands and entrances, you aren't going to be able to push unless there is no-one in that deerstand (You can get lucky, however).

Telos is simply a bad idea and as @Freddie said, the leaders of operations always tell you to stay away from Telos. In operations, people fail to follow the orders of the Operational Leader which leads to disciplinary action if caught. Cops don't need better guns. Cops don't need better leaders. Cops need better brains.

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I believe this conversation has gone off-topic slightly. If you read through the OPs message, the bank and other operational settings are not provided as examples, instead what Delta is highlighting is the issues he has observed in the late time / early morning when there are very few officers online.

What I would suggest is that the best fix for this, would simply be asking for rebels to potentially modify their behaviour slightly at those hours. If you find yourselves on late and are aware of the low cop presence, please take it into consideration and go about your business as normal. I have heard how some teams / factions drive about in off-roads and prowlers firing illegal weapons in the air as a show of dominance. I can understand the temptation, but for those officers who game in those hours, it's going to somewhat sour their experience. To my knowledge these issues don't happen in the day, so to equip cops with better weapons, or modify prices would have a "far reaching" impact which would obviously carry through to those playing mid-day, when the issues outlined do not occur, or far less often.

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Just now, Walt said:

I believe this conversation has gone off-topic slightly. If you read through the OPs message, the bank and other operational settings are not provided as examples, instead what Delta is highlighting is the issues he has observed in the late time / early morning when there are very few officers online.

What I would suggest is that the best fix for this, would simply be asking for rebels to potentially modify their behaviour slightly at those hours. If you find yourselves on late and are aware of the low cop presence, please take it into consideration and go about your business as normal. I have heard how some teams / factions drive about in off-roads and prowlers firing illegal weapons in the air as a show of dominance. I can understand the temptation, but for those officers who game in those hours, it's going to somewhat sour their experience. To my knowledge these issues don't happen in the day, so to equip cops with better weapons, or modify prices would have a "far reaching" impact which would obviously carry through to those playing mid-day, when the issues outlined do not occur, or far less often.

Similar to the baiting issue, don't take the bait if you know you're not going to win. You still don't need bigger guns or anything, the point everyone is making still applies. Positioning and leadership are what are key in ArmA, especially when you're outnumbered and outgunned. Rather than taking the bait, ignore them or set up. If you're going to get into a gunfight, you may as well win it.

The general idea of baiting in that sense is appauling to be honest, but rebels will be rebels. If they can't win a fight in the day and they have to get into gunfights when they outnumber the cops at 3 in the morning, they don't deserve to be called a 'gang'. Should more likely be called, now excuse me for this one, chavs:

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With all respect, we should NOT recieve higher cals, Sage is rigth, we lack tactical knowledgde, positioning, and general gameplay idea, it's really easy to win, if you play it tactical, but sadly we're running around like wild gooses. We got a great armory, our equipment is free, which i thinks should be changed, to change the general attitude of most officers, and prevent hop-on squads, but will make a seperate suggestion. in the end, Delta, as INS i only got access to 6.5, and you can get your first 6.5 as SC, so just wait it out, CSO + PCSO is there for training purposes, and just when you reach C, means you've passed your PCSO test, but it does not mean you're the best officer, you're still new and learning, therefore always head with higher ups, and dont go by yourself. learn by others, and teach others.

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15 hours ago, Sage said:

Or you could use your numbers to actually achieve something instead of it being a hindrance, which, from when I was a cop was always the main problem.. Shit comms, shit positioning = easy kills for the opposition.

Cops will always out number in-game and, contrary to this for the cops - they are not the majority of this community (And never should be) as entertaining civs and gaining interest from rebel groups etc. is what gains the popularity of the server, so why not cater to them? If every pcso attends a gas station robbery or thorium with a 762 - guess what? Not everyone in those situations are going to have 762 to themselves and think the server is ridiculous.

PCSOs are there to learn the ropes and to get to grips with the RP expected from them. So, what exactly is the requirement of a bigger weapon?

And if we were to talk from an RP perspective - Most cops in the UK roll around with tasers only - when they attend a situation they don't just say "Oh just in case let me grab my sniper rifle".... They'd observe, use COMMON SENSE before they walk in and make a judgement call from there.

The topic was more focused ranks past pcso as if pcso's were allowed to run around with lethals the server would be chaos. The main focus was of the constables or higher not being able to hold their own when their squad have been wiped or no one showed up. The idea of a pcso having a 7.62 was no mentioned.

Also correct me if im wrong but ive never seen more than an a assault riffle used in england against cops hence why they only need tasers. But on altis thats not the case

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15 hours ago, Tidus said:

As for this i don't know if you have noticed but the officer that patrol at night seem to think they rule the server, when i patrol at night i chill around with people and have a laugh, At that time of night just be lenient on people and you will enjoy it alot more.

Its like they see a gun and get a boner, just let it be and have a chat. I think you will find people are more willing to roleplay at night rather than in the day.

not all people do it but over the past few nights me and the lads have been playing small groups of rebels go around targeting whatever officer they can find and taking their gear then either giving it to civs to reinforce their group or keeping the gear for later purposes. This means at night a lot of the time the cops become practically restricted to greenzones where they can not be robbed. Last night @Xero and a few other syndicate members tried to help the police out with the rebel activity as it was becoming overwhelming. The point is that if maybe even gun prices were increased we would see less of this happening.

Kind regards to @Walt for backing me up and seeing my point of view.

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